Discussion:
Bringing Classical Music Into Classrooms
(too old to reply)
clamnebula
2003-08-31 03:58:14 UTC
Permalink
---Original Message---
Entertainment - Reuters
Bringing Classical Music Into Classrooms
1 hour, 49 minutes ago By Steve Smith

NEW YORK (Billboard) - Many explanations have been offered for the dire straits
affecting the contemporary classical music industry. But one stands out as the
most critical: the deep cuts in public schools' music education programs.

Without meaningful exposure to classical music, children can hardly be expected
to embrace such a serious, often demanding art. As a result, they may grow into
adults who feel no connection to the music -- and therefore have no compelling
reason to attend concerts or purchase recordings.

Rather than simply bemoaning the situation, several individuals and companies
have embarked on a campaign to win young hearts and minds on behalf of classical
music by offering educational tools for children of all ages and developmental
stages. Some have begun to direct their efforts toward empowering adult
listeners, as well.

read on here-
http://tinylink.com/?rb3h9rjs3y
MIFrost
2003-08-31 11:41:57 UTC
Permalink
"David Hurwitz" <***@newsguy.com> wrote in message

teaching a child to regurgitate required
information for a grade will not create either music lovers or music
consumers.
That can only come from one place: the home.
I child who sees his parents reading for pleasure will grow up to read more
and watch television less. English class is still a required subject in all
schools and has less impact on reading habits than the example at home. The
same holds true for music tastes, IMO, though peer pressure will always draw
young people to rock, primarily.

MIFrost
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
2003-08-31 19:11:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by MIFrost
teaching a child to regurgitate required
information for a grade will not create either music lovers or music
consumers.
That can only come from one place: the home.
A child who sees his parents reading for pleasure will grow up to read more
and watch television less. English class is still a required subject in all
schools and has less impact on reading habits than the example at home. The
same holds true for music tastes, IMO, though peer pressure will always draw
young people to rock, primarily.
Well, there was always "music" in my childhood home, but my only real
exposure to "classical" music (outside of the movies, where we
encountered such films as "Carnegie Hall". "make Mine Music", etc.) was
in the classroom. My mother played the piano (after a fashion) but
mostly current popular music, my grandfather could play practically any
woodwind instrument, but mostly it was sax in dance bands. On the other
hand, the public school system in our city offered music and art classes
on alternate days, taught by teachers specializing in those
disciplines. The days when our music class fell on Fridays, we received
a "reward" (if we'd been "good" for the two week period). Once a month
we'd have a "concert" by fellow students who were studying piano or
other instrtuments privately, once a month the teacher would (in the
guise of a special treat) play classical recordings for us.

Without that exposure, I seriously doubt whether I'd have announced (at
age ten) that I intended to become an opera singer, or ever studied
music. Even in my generation, many children were NOT exposed to music
in the home, because their parents had neither the time nor the interest
(nor the money) to provide it. The schools in my day, however, took the
notion of "education" seriously, exposing us to ideas and activities we
were unlikely to encounter outside of school. IMO, that's where our
educational system has failed us for the past few generations, and it
becomes more and more evident as each generation of parents are less and
less aware of the lacks in their own knowledge.
David Hurwitz
2003-08-31 19:58:47 UTC
Permalink
though peer pressure will always draw
Post by MIFrost
young people to rock, primarily.
MIFrost
Up to a point. I listened to classical music because my parents did (along with
much else besides). As I went through my teens, I did and do listen to rock, and
enjoy it, but my love of classical music did not diminish and, as I've said
before, this is not a zero-sum game. It is only snobs who maintain that a normal
person cannot enjoy all types of music, and who force a young person to choose
putting popular music in a position adversarial to the classics, that can turn
off the legitimate interest of young people.

Dave Hurwitz
John Harrington
2003-08-31 13:33:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by clamnebula
---Original Message---
Entertainment - Reuters
Bringing Classical Music Into Classrooms
1 hour, 49 minutes ago By Steve Smith
NEW YORK (Billboard) - Many explanations have been offered for the dire straits
affecting the contemporary classical music industry. But one stands out as the
most critical: the deep cuts in public schools' music education programs.
And the most silly. We had this debate a few weeks ago already; first, the
"contemporary classical music industry" by which I assume we mean "today's" and
not "modern music", is not in "dire straits." It has grown hugely over the past
few decades and is discovering that it cannot sustain its current level of
activity everywhere that it decided to plant itself. That's not "dire
straights", it bad management, bad marketing, and stupid decision making, and
the result is a lot of unhappy people looking for someone else to blame for
their own mistakes, talking to journalists looking for a story.
Is classical music in the schools a good thing as part of general program of
education about our shared cultural heritage? Of course it is. Will it have any
positive commercial impact in terms of creating new audiences for concerts and
recordings? Not at all. Witness the people in this very group who will praise
their encounters with classical music in the schools to the skies, but who would
pawn their own mother's jewelry before paying full price for a CD.
Leaving aside
the issue of the impact of mere "exposure" and the amount necessary to create an
"audience," the purpose of such education is not to create consumers. It's to
impart knowledge.
Can you understand how, for some people, when they receive knowledge,
they occasionally take an interest in the knowledge given them and
then pursue the subject further on their own, which often requires
buying things?
There is a world of difference between teaching classical music in the schools,
an endeavor that belongs to the world of education, and creating a new
generation of classical music consumers, the exclusive realm of the
ENTERTAINMENT industry. Classical music vies for the consumer's entertainment
dollar alongside all other forms of cheap entertainment (classical CDs are, on
average, even cheaper than pop CDs, and a good seat at Carnegie Hall still costs
less than a Broadway show), and teaching a child to regurgitate required
information for a grade will not create either music lovers or music consumers.
That can only come from one place: the home.
This absolute statement [creating music lovers or consumers can only
come from the home] requires but a single counter-example to be proven
false, and here it comes: I had a grade-school teacher named Mr. Leo
Hamilton who played the Ansermet recording of Glazunov's Seasons in
class every Friday afternoon. Forcing me to listen over and over to
the same work (which, say what you will about it, I still love),
taught me to listen with an attention to detail that was unknown to
me. Without that, I doubt I would ever have developed an interest in
music. It certainly would not have come from my home. Though my much
older brother studied the piano briefly in college, neither of my
parents had any particular interest in music. For the past 12 years
or so, I've bought on average one CD per day, many of them at full
price, not to mention hundreds of books about music, sheet music and a
few quite pricey instruments. Many thanks, Mr. Ham, wherever you are!


John
mazzolata
2003-08-31 19:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Harrington
There is a world of difference between teaching classical music in the schools,
an endeavor that belongs to the world of education, and creating a new
generation of classical music consumers, the exclusive realm of the
ENTERTAINMENT industry. Classical music vies for the consumer's entertainment
dollar alongside all other forms of cheap entertainment (classical CDs are, on
average, even cheaper than pop CDs, and a good seat at Carnegie Hall still costs
less than a Broadway show), and teaching a child to regurgitate required
information for a grade will not create either music lovers or music consumers.
That can only come from one place: the home.
This absolute statement [creating music lovers or consumers can only
come from the home] requires but a single counter-example to be proven
false, and here it comes: {snip)
Two logical fallacies in one sentence - good going there, John !

1. The prior statement was clearly not an "absolute statement" but a
generalalization.

2. A generalization cannot be disproven with a single example.

Maybe your friends at the flat earth society can help out next time.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------

Ma chambre a la forme d'une cage
le soleil passe son bras par la fenetre
Dr.Matt
2003-08-31 21:35:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Harrington
There is a world of difference between teaching classical music in the schools,
an endeavor that belongs to the world of education, and creating a new
generation of classical music consumers, the exclusive realm of the
ENTERTAINMENT industry. Classical music vies for the consumer's entertainment
dollar alongside all other forms of cheap entertainment (classical CDs are, on
average, even cheaper than pop CDs, and a good seat at Carnegie Hall
still costs
Post by John Harrington
less than a Broadway show), and teaching a child to regurgitate required
information for a grade will not create either music lovers or music consumers.
That can only come from one place: the home.
This absolute statement [creating music lovers or consumers can only
come from the home] requires but a single counter-example to be proven
false, and here it comes: {snip)
Two logical fallacies in one sentence - good going there, John !
1. The prior statement was clearly not an "absolute statement" but a
generalalization.
False dichotomy.
2. A generalization cannot be disproven with a single example.
Implicit neologism and equivocation. Your generalization is adequately
disproven by John's counterexample.
Maybe your friends at the flat earth society can help out next time.
Straw man.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Ma chambre a la forme d'une cage
le soleil passe son bras par la fenetre
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Paolo Cordone
2003-09-02 17:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by mazzolata
1. The prior statement was clearly not an "absolute statement" but a
generalalization.
^^^^^^^^^^^
[snip]
Post by mazzolata
Maybe your friends at the flat earth society can help out next time.
Maybe your friendly spelling dictionary can help out next time.

Paolo
David Hurwitz
2003-08-31 20:10:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Harrington
Can you understand how, for some people, when they receive knowledge,
they occasionally take an interest in the knowledge given them and
then pursue the subject further on their own, which often requires
buying things?
Sure, but there is a big difference between knowing that this happens every now
and then and asserting that a massive investment in public school music
educational program will create such a phenomenon on a scale sufficient to
ameliorate the current "dire straits" of the classical music industry. Please
read what I wrote with a little nuance; I say quite clearly that I support
classical music education in the schools; what remains to be seen in the causual
link between education in the schools and the solution to the current "problem"
as those doing the complaining define it. See the difference?
Post by John Harrington
This absolute statement [creating music lovers or consumers can only
come from the home] requires but a single counter-example to be proven
false, and here it comes: I had a grade-school teacher named Mr. Leo
Hamilton who played the Ansermet recording of Glazunov's Seasons in
class every Friday afternoon. Forcing me to listen over and over to
the same work (which, say what you will about it, I still love),
taught me to listen with an attention to detail that was unknown to
me. Without that, I doubt I would ever have developed an interest in
music. It certainly would not have come from my home. Though my much
older brother studied the piano briefly in college, neither of my
parents had any particular interest in music. For the past 12 years
or so, I've bought on average one CD per day, many of them at full
price, not to mention hundreds of books about music, sheet music and a
few quite pricey instruments. Many thanks, Mr. Ham, wherever you are!
Please; as I note above, I never said that such things never work. Just that you
alone are not going to solve the industry's problems. And, I might add, your
teacher played Glazunov every Friday because it was something he wanted to do.
That does not sound like a systematic program of music education to me. I doubt
you took a course in Glazunov's the seasons. I had a teacher who did the
basically same thing with Grieg's Peer Gynt. All this is, in fact, is an example
of a young person being "exposed"--the fact that you were exposed informally to
a single work by a teacher in a school isn't terribly relevant here. It could
have been the boss at your first job, or any other adult with which you had an
ongoing relationship, or it could have been through the media or many other
sources. Nor, frankly, does your experience offer evidence that organized
musical programs create music lovers--for all we know there are other Mr. Hams
out there doing the same thing, because that is what they like to do,
irrespective of a major public policy initiative and if you are right this
actually argues against such an initiative, not for it.

So again, you personal experience is not proof that systematic music education
is the answer.

Dave Hurwitz
John Harrington
2003-09-01 03:58:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hurwitz
Post by John Harrington
Can you understand how, for some people, when they receive knowledge,
they occasionally take an interest in the knowledge given them and
then pursue the subject further on their own, which often requires
buying things?
Sure, but there is a big difference between knowing that this happens every now
and then and asserting that a massive investment in public school music
educational program will create such a phenomenon on a scale sufficient to
ameliorate the current "dire straits" of the classical music industry. Please
read what I wrote with a little nuance; I say quite clearly that I support
classical music education in the schools; what remains to be seen in the causual
link between education in the schools and the solution to the current "problem"
as those doing the complaining define it. See the difference?
Post by John Harrington
This absolute statement [creating music lovers or consumers can only
come from the home] requires but a single counter-example to be proven
false, and here it comes: I had a grade-school teacher named Mr. Leo
Hamilton who played the Ansermet recording of Glazunov's Seasons in
class every Friday afternoon. Forcing me to listen over and over to
the same work (which, say what you will about it, I still love),
taught me to listen with an attention to detail that was unknown to
me. Without that, I doubt I would ever have developed an interest in
music. It certainly would not have come from my home. Though my much
older brother studied the piano briefly in college, neither of my
parents had any particular interest in music. For the past 12 years
or so, I've bought on average one CD per day, many of them at full
price, not to mention hundreds of books about music, sheet music and a
few quite pricey instruments. Many thanks, Mr. Ham, wherever you are!
Please; as I note above, I never said that such things never work. Just that you
alone are not going to solve the industry's problems. And, I might add, your
teacher played Glazunov every Friday because it was something he wanted to do.
That does not sound like a systematic program of music education to me. I doubt
you took a course in Glazunov's the seasons. I had a teacher who did the
basically same thing with Grieg's Peer Gynt. All this is, in fact, is an example
of a young person being "exposed"--the fact that you were exposed informally to
a single work by a teacher in a school isn't terribly relevant here. It could
have been the boss at your first job, or any other adult with which you had an
ongoing relationship, or it could have been through the media or many other
sources. Nor, frankly, does your experience offer evidence that organized
musical programs create music lovers--for all we know there are other Mr. Hams
out there doing the same thing, because that is what they like to do,
irrespective of a major public policy initiative and if you are right this
actually argues against such an initiative, not for it.
So again, you personal experience is not proof that systematic music education
is the answer.
It wasn't meant to be. It was meant to refute your assertion that
music enthusiasm can only develop in the home, and it did that
handily. Indeed, even you admit this above, in direct contradiction
of your earlier words.


John
David Hurwitz
2003-09-01 05:08:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Harrington
Post by David Hurwitz
So again, you personal experience is not proof that systematic music education
is the answer.
It wasn't meant to be. It was meant to refute your assertion that
music enthusiasm can only develop in the home, and it did that
handily. Indeed, even you admit this above, in direct contradiction
of your earlier words.
John
It would be nice is asserting a "direct contradiction" meant that one existed.
Alas, it does not.

I did not say that "music enthusiasm" can only develop in the home. You said
that. It can and does develop anywhere that the possibility for exposure exists.
What I said was that the knowledge necessary to become a consumer of classical
music, to view it as a vehicle ripe for one's entertainment and leisure
activities, can only come from the home.

Dave Hurwitz
Dr.Matt
2003-09-01 14:01:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hurwitz
Post by John Harrington
Post by David Hurwitz
So again, you personal experience is not proof that systematic music education
is the answer.
It wasn't meant to be. It was meant to refute your assertion that
music enthusiasm can only develop in the home, and it did that
handily. Indeed, even you admit this above, in direct contradiction
of your earlier words.
John
It would be nice is asserting a "direct contradiction" meant that one existed.
Alas, it does not.
I did not say that "music enthusiasm" can only develop in the home. You said
that. It can and does develop anywhere that the possibility for exposure exists.
What I said was that the knowledge necessary to become a consumer of classical
music, to view it as a vehicle ripe for one's entertainment and leisure
activities, can only come from the home.
Didn't come from MY parents.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
nightingale
2003-09-01 15:22:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr.Matt
Post by David Hurwitz
I did not say that "music enthusiasm" can only develop in the home. You said
that. It can and does develop anywhere that the possibility for exposure exists.
What I said was that the knowledge necessary to become a consumer of classical
music, to view it as a vehicle ripe for one's entertainment and leisure
activities, can only come from the home.
Didn't come from MY parents.
where did it come from?
Dr.Matt
2003-09-01 16:06:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hurwitz
Post by Dr.Matt
Post by David Hurwitz
I did not say that "music enthusiasm" can only develop in the home. You said
that. It can and does develop anywhere that the possibility for
exposure exists.
Post by Dr.Matt
Post by David Hurwitz
What I said was that the knowledge necessary to become a consumer of classical
music, to view it as a vehicle ripe for one's entertainment and leisure
activities, can only come from the home.
Didn't come from MY parents.
where did it come from?
I discovered classical music largely due to Carol Vermeulen, the Low
Strings Teacher at all the schools in Deerfield and Lake Forest,
IL. Her son William is now among the top hornists of the world, and
will be playing in next week's recording sessions of my "Sages of
Chelm". I also got a bit of encouragement from Margaret Creighton, the
music teacher at South Park Elementary School in Deerfield, and Susan
Fremling, the choral director at Wilmot Junior High School (now renamed
Caruso Junior High School) in Deerfield.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
David Hurwitz
2003-09-01 17:06:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr.Matt
Post by nightingale
Post by Dr.Matt
Didn't come from MY parents.
where did it come from?
I discovered classical music largely due to Carol Vermeulen, the Low
Strings Teacher at all the schools in Deerfield and Lake Forest,
IL. Her son William is now among the top hornists of the world, and
will be playing in next week's recording sessions of my "Sages of
Chelm". I also got a bit of encouragement from Margaret Creighton, the
music teacher at South Park Elementary School in Deerfield, and Susan
Fremling, the choral director at Wilmot Junior High School (now renamed
Caruso Junior High School) in Deerfield.
Sounds to me like you're leaving out a few details, like how you got the point
to be able to write "The Sages of Chelm." Who payed for your college education?
Who encouraged you to even have a college education? Who supported (or at least
tolerated) your enthusiasms once you decided what they were? Or were you totally
self-motivated and self-supporting from Junior High School onwards? I think you
are confusing the intial encounter or enthusiasm for music with the mental
equipment (and value system) necessary to make something of that enthusiasm, and
that, I would suggest, came from your parents, unless you were an orphan or they
were extremely dysfunctional and inadequate.

Where you were exposed is not, to may mind, terribly important, especially today
where the opportunities for exposure via the various media are so much greater
than they were three or four decades ago. What matters is what happens
afterwards. Indeed, the evidence of the failure of the "public school" approach
is the status quo, where only a tiny minority of people so educated give a damn
about classical music, and this tiny minority is not sufficient to support the
industry as it wishes to be supported. After all, we are at the point where the
"baby boom" generation is at upper-middle age and nearing retirement. They are
the ideal classical music demographic, and virtually that entire generation had
access to the kind of public school education that you describe. So where are
all of the classical music fans?

The issue, I repeat, is not whether or not music education in the schools is
good or bad, but whether or not there is a direct causual link between such
programs and the creation of a body of classical music consumers in sufficient
quantity to support the industry as it exists today. The evidence is clear:
there is no link, and such programs do not create such an audience, the
occasional exceptions to this general rule notwithstanding. And the reason such
programs do not work is that the initial "exposure" is not fostered in the home,
which is where values are formed and opportunities encouraged and supported--and
this is not unique to music, by the way. It's a mistake to take "music" and make
it a subject apart from all others.

And, I should add, the homes that fostered today's baby boom generation of music
lovers, and which (if you buy the myth of the "golden age" of music education in
the public schools) were run by parents even more "exposed" to classical music
(in the 30s and 40s) then were their children. Despite all of this, the audience
for classical music remains relatively constant as percentage of the total
marketplace for music, despite huge growth in the sheer quantity of performing
arts options available in general over the past few decades as populations have
grown and demographics have shifted around the country from a concentration in
Northeast and the manufacturing centers of the Midwest, to the South, Southwest,
and West Coast.

As I said before, I support music education in general because I support the
broadest program of education in general. But to claim that such programs will
create the audience that will ultimately patronize the "classical music" branch
of the entertainment industry strikes me as ridiculous, and there is no evidence
to suggest that it would make any difference at all.

Dave Hurwitz
Dr.Matt
2003-09-01 18:02:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hurwitz
Post by Dr.Matt
Post by nightingale
Post by Dr.Matt
Didn't come from MY parents.
where did it come from?
I discovered classical music largely due to Carol Vermeulen, the Low
Strings Teacher at all the schools in Deerfield and Lake Forest,
IL. Her son William is now among the top hornists of the world, and
will be playing in next week's recording sessions of my "Sages of
Chelm". I also got a bit of encouragement from Margaret Creighton, the
music teacher at South Park Elementary School in Deerfield, and Susan
Fremling, the choral director at Wilmot Junior High School (now renamed
Caruso Junior High School) in Deerfield.
Sounds to me like you're leaving out a few details, like how you got the point
to be able to write "The Sages of Chelm." Who payed for your college education?
My grandparents created the fund in order that I should go to business
school. They were dead when I actually went to undergrad; my grad
school was funded all by fellowships and my own work.
Post by David Hurwitz
Who encouraged you to even have a college education?
My high school scheduling advisor.
Post by David Hurwitz
Who supported (or at least
tolerated) your enthusiasms once you decided what they were?
My teachers. My parents tried to use my college trust account as a tax
dodge once but apparently got caught.
Post by David Hurwitz
Or were you totally
self-motivated and self-supporting from Junior High School onwards?
You're starting to get the idea. A careful application of shame, much
of it coming from Mrs Vermeulen, helped keep my parents from interfering.
Post by David Hurwitz
I think you
are confusing the intial encounter or enthusiasm for music with the mental
equipment (and value system) necessary to make something of that enthusiasm, and
that, I would suggest, came from your parents, unless you were an orphan or they
were extremely dysfunctional and inadequate.
I think you are jumping to the wrong conclusion. They were extremely
dysfunctional and inadequate, and saw the prospects of my possible
success as competing somehow with my mother's jewelry craftwork. But
they're not a factor in my life, and haven't been for decades. Perhaps
the barriers they set for me explain why I've been a late bloomer, but
I became the skilled musician that I am through my own initiative
without anything remotely like familial encouragement. In recent years
my cousins have started taking an interest in my art, and that's
gratifying, but it comes decades after "the home".
Post by David Hurwitz
Where you were exposed is not, to may mind, terribly important, especially today
where the opportunities for exposure via the various media are so much greater
than they were three or four decades ago. What matters is what happens
afterwards. Indeed, the evidence of the failure of the "public school" approach
is the status quo, where only a tiny minority of people so educated give a damn
about classical music, and this tiny minority is not sufficient to support the
industry as it wishes to be supported. After all, we are at the point where the
"baby boom" generation is at upper-middle age and nearing retirement. They are
the ideal classical music demographic, and virtually that entire generation had
access to the kind of public school education that you describe. So where are
all of the classical music fans?
Where is all this public education?
Post by David Hurwitz
The issue, I repeat, is not whether or not music education in the schools is
good or bad, but whether or not there is a direct causual link between such
programs and the creation of a body of classical music consumers in sufficient
there is no link, and such programs do not create such an audience, the
occasional exceptions to this general rule notwithstanding. And the reason such
programs do not work is that the initial "exposure" is not fostered in the home,
which is where values are formed and opportunities encouraged and supported--and
this is not unique to music, by the way. It's a mistake to take "music" and make
it a subject apart from all others.
And, I should add, the homes that fostered today's baby boom generation of music
lovers, and which (if you buy the myth of the "golden age" of music education in
the public schools) were run by parents even more "exposed" to classical music
(in the 30s and 40s) then were their children. Despite all of this, the audience
for classical music remains relatively constant as percentage of the total
marketplace for music, despite huge growth in the sheer quantity of performing
arts options available in general over the past few decades as populations have
grown and demographics have shifted around the country from a concentration in
Northeast and the manufacturing centers of the Midwest, to the South, Southwest,
and West Coast.
As I said before, I support music education in general because I support the
broadest program of education in general. But to claim that such programs will
create the audience that will ultimately patronize the "classical music" branch
of the entertainment industry strikes me as ridiculous, and there is no evidence
to suggest that it would make any difference at all.
Dave Hurwitz
You seem to be mixing that whole issue with my particular story,
whereas I only offered my story as an anecdote, and I haven't
particularly participated in the "at home" argument at all.

However, you HAVE gone on record saying that the only way that
classical music comes to be valued comes from "at home". You have
subsequently denied saying that, but your own words to that effect
have been quoted back at you over and over again. It's a broad brush
to paint with, and I'm gratified that you've started noticing the class
of exceptions.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
nightingale
2003-09-01 19:51:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr.Matt
You're starting to get the idea. A careful application of shame, much
of it coming from Mrs Vermeulen, helped keep my parents from interfering.
Sounds like you were very lucky to have had such a teacher.
Post by Dr.Matt
I think you are jumping to the wrong conclusion. They were extremely
dysfunctional and inadequate, and saw the prospects of my possible
success as competing somehow with my mother's jewelry craftwork. But
they're not a factor in my life, and haven't been for decades. Perhaps
the barriers they set for me explain why I've been a late bloomer, but
I became the skilled musician that I am through my own initiative
without anything remotely like familial encouragement.
Encouragement at home may help, but if music is truly your path, you
will eventually find your way without it. In some cases, all the
encouragement in the world won't interest a child whose heart is
elsewhere. Classical music is unlikely to be any part of my daughter's
life, and it's not for any lack of exposure or encouragement at home.
Post by Dr.Matt
Where is all this public education?
In his dreams. Music & art is usually the first thing pucblic schools
cut if there are budget woes, and they are often cutting from a program
that was pretty bare-bones to start with.
Post by Dr.Matt
You seem to be mixing that whole issue with my particular story,
whereas I only offered my story as an anecdote, and I haven't
particularly participated in the "at home" argument at all.
However, you HAVE gone on record saying that the only way that
classical music comes to be valued comes from "at home". You have
subsequently denied saying that, but your own words to that effect
have been quoted back at you over and over again. It's a broad brush
to paint with, and I'm gratified that you've started noticing the class
of exceptions.
Some people have a hard time admitting they made a mistake, which only
ends up looking worse on them in the end.
David Hurwitz
2003-09-01 20:06:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr.Matt
However, you HAVE gone on record saying that the only way that
classical music comes to be valued comes from "at home". You have
subsequently denied saying that, but your own words to that effect
have been quoted back at you over and over again. It's a broad brush
to paint with, and I'm gratified that you've started noticing the class
of exceptions.
If you want to continue taking my remarks out of context then go right ahead,
but I did not say that the ONLY way classical music comes to be "valued" comes
from home. What I said was that the environment that creates "music lovers and
music consumers" can only come from the home. I will, if it makes you happy,
modify this to include "the nurturing environmental equivalent thereof" to
account for your unhappy family life, but I really shouldn't have to, because
the context of the remark is quite clear, and the point to which is leads is
even clearer.

I don't think anyone believes that it is the job of the schools to replicate or
replace the home environment, and to the extent that some do or may to the
extent that you found a mentor to act as a surrogate parent, this once again
does not serve as "proof" as to the value of a musical PROGRAM in the
schools--it is merely evidence of a good relationship between student and
teacher as may occur with respect to any subject or shared interest at all, and
which is delightful and lucky for you, but not evidence that spending lots of
money teaching classical music appreciation will produce the results that you
experienced on the scale demanded by the industry today--and THAT is the point.

Dave Hurwitz
Dr.Matt
2003-09-01 21:02:16 UTC
Permalink
David, your actual words are a matter of public record--no further argument
by you to deny them is at all credible, though you may retract them or
rephrase them at any time.

As for your claim that music education is ineffective, that remains to be
seen. Music education is largely an untried idea in this country.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
David Hurwitz
2003-09-02 00:40:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr.Matt
David, your actual words are a matter of public record
Indeed, all of them, not merely the ones you choose to interpret as you please.

Dave Hurwitz
Dr.Matt
2003-09-01 21:25:16 UTC
Permalink
One error, I seem to recall that Mrs Fremling's name is Cynthia.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Matthew B. Tepper
2003-09-01 17:07:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by nightingale
Post by Dr.Matt
Post by David Hurwitz
I did not say that "music enthusiasm" can only develop in the home.
You said that. It can and does develop anywhere that the possibility
for exposure exists. What I said was that the knowledge necessary to
become a consumer of classical music, to view it as a vehicle ripe
for one's entertainment and leisure activities, can only come from
the home.
Didn't come from MY parents.
where did it come from?
<cue ethereal music> The lady of the lake, her arm clad in the purest
shimmering samite, held it aloft from the bosom of the water.
Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a
system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from
the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Dr.Matt
2003-09-01 17:47:28 UTC
Permalink
Is that an African swallow or a European swallow?
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Matthew B. Tepper
2003-09-01 22:44:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr.Matt
Is that an African swallow or a European swallow?
Ni!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Richard Brooks
2003-09-09 23:20:03 UTC
Permalink
For me it came from playing clarinet in orchestra during high school,
from an innovative three-hour Saturday night program of 20th century
classical music on a long-gone Richmond VA classical music station,
from a highly knowledgable senior salesperson in Richmond, who sold
classical recordings in the basement of a venerable music store, to a
much lesser extent from Leonard Bernstein's televised Young People's
Concerts, and from the same imaginative impulse that lead me as a
teenager toward science fiction and (slightly later) avant garde
poetry.
It's very rare for great programmes to pop up and the only things I've seen
on tv in the past years are a short series fronted by Wynton Marsalis for
BBC2 in the UK where he explained some of the theories of form in the
orchestra to a crowd of young people. Okay, he had a his jazz band there
also to play some stuff he'd explained but they were great programmes.

The only other stuff I've seen is a series with Pierre Boulez and also
Leonard Bernsteins lectures which I have on Betamax!


Richard.
Post by Dr.Matt
Post by David Hurwitz
Post by John Harrington
Post by David Hurwitz
So again, you personal experience is not proof that systematic
music education is the answer.
It wasn't meant to be. It was meant to refute your assertion that
music enthusiasm can only develop in the home, and it did that
handily. Indeed, even you admit this above, in direct
contradiction of your earlier words.
John
It would be nice is asserting a "direct contradiction" meant that
one existed. Alas, it does not.
I did not say that "music enthusiasm" can only develop in the home.
You said that. It can and does develop anywhere that the
possibility for exposure exists. What I said was that the knowledge
necessary to become a consumer of classical music, to view it as a
vehicle ripe for one's entertainment and leisure activities, can
only come from the home.
Didn't come from MY parents.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 02/09/03

John Harrington
2003-09-01 16:23:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hurwitz
Post by John Harrington
Post by David Hurwitz
So again, you personal experience is not proof that systematic music education
is the answer.
It wasn't meant to be. It was meant to refute your assertion that
music enthusiasm can only develop in the home, and it did that
handily. Indeed, even you admit this above, in direct contradiction
of your earlier words.
John
It would be nice is asserting a "direct contradiction" meant that one existed.
Alas, it does not.
I did not say that "music enthusiasm" can only develop in the home. You said
that. It can and does develop anywhere that the possibility for exposure exists.
What I said was that the knowledge necessary to become a consumer of classical
music, to view it as a vehicle ripe for one's entertainment and leisure
activities, can only come from the home.
No, what you said, and then snipped, was:

...teaching a child to regurgitate required information for a grade
will not create either music lovers or music consumers. That can
only come from one place: the home.

Your second assertion was not only refuted by my one anecdote but was
directly contradicted by your own words in a subsequent post, and, indeed,
your own words in this post.


John
David Hurwitz
2003-09-01 16:40:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Harrington
...teaching a child to regurgitate required information for a grade
will not create either music lovers or music consumers. That can
only come from one place: the home.
Your second assertion was not only refuted by my one anecdote but was
directly contradicted by your own words in a subsequent post, and, indeed,
your own words in this post.
John
You keep saying that, but that doesn't make is so. There is a difference, a big
difference, between "music enthusiasm" as you express it as a "first exposure",
and becoming a "music lover or music consumer" with all that this implies. I did
not say that one's first enthusiasm or exposure can only come from the home,
which is what you contend. You seem to equate first exposure with the entire
subsequent process of putting that initial enthusiasm to use; developing your
base of knowledge; investing time and money in reaching the stage when you can
legitimately call yourself a "music lover or music consumer."

Indeed, your own experience by your own admission was NOT one of having to
"regurgitate required information for a grade." It was simply some guy who
happened to be in your school playing The Seasons every Friday until you finally
decided that you liked it. That is clearly an experience quite different from
the one I was addressing--a systematic program of classical music education--and
this what proponents of music education in the schools desire. So not only have
I not contradicted myself, your example proves absolutely nothing one way or the
other, and I think the the entire thought, as you yourself quote it above, makes
this quite clear.

Dave Hurwitz
John Harrington
2003-09-02 05:19:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hurwitz
Post by John Harrington
...teaching a child to regurgitate required information for a grade
will not create either music lovers or music consumers. That can
only come from one place: the home.
Your second assertion was not only refuted by my one anecdote but was
directly contradicted by your own words in a subsequent post, and, indeed,
your own words in this post.
John
You keep saying that, but that doesn't make is so. There is a difference, a big
difference, between "music enthusiasm" as you express it as a "first exposure",
and becoming a "music lover or music consumer" with all that this implies. I did
not say that one's first enthusiasm or exposure can only come from the home,
which is what you contend. You seem to equate first exposure with the entire
subsequent process of putting that initial enthusiasm to use; developing your
base of knowledge; investing time and money in reaching the stage when you can
legitimately call yourself a "music lover or music consumer."
Indeed, your own experience by your own admission was NOT one of having to
"regurgitate required information for a grade." It was simply some guy who
happened to be in your school playing The Seasons every Friday until you finally
decided that you liked it. That is clearly an experience quite different from
the one I was addressing--a systematic program of classical music education--and
this what proponents of music education in the schools desire. So not only have
I not contradicted myself, your example proves absolutely nothing one way or the
other, and I think the the entire thought, as you yourself quote it above, makes
this quite clear.
Your handwaving and backpedalling is not going to change the fact that you
said that the creation of music lovers or consumers "can only come from one
place: the home." If you want to split hairs and say "enthusaism" is a poor
synonym for music loving, fine. My one anecdote still refutes your rash
assertion. Just buck up, cut your losses, and think before you post next
time.


John
Dr.Matt
2003-08-31 21:36:43 UTC
Permalink
So you have bought 4380 CDs in the past 12 years? RIAA LOVES YOU
If you've stolen music at a fraction of that rate, a lot of
musicians hate you.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Daniel Kolle
2003-09-01 00:25:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr.Matt
If you've stolen music at a fraction of that rate, a lot of
musicians hate you.
Boo-hoo.

--
-Kolle; 15 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, and Gustav Mahler are my Gods.
Madly Insane EAC Scientist.
Classical Music
2003-09-02 16:48:39 UTC
Permalink
Lets hope that recordings of Richard Tucker will be avoided in the
classroom.
We want these kids to love CM and opera. Hearing that voice will be an
immediate
turm-off for them, especially if they see a Tucker video and the gd, shitty
rug on his head.
CM
Post by John Harrington
Post by clamnebula
---Original Message---
Entertainment - Reuters
Bringing Classical Music Into Classrooms
1 hour, 49 minutes ago By Steve Smith
NEW YORK (Billboard) - Many explanations have been offered for the dire straits
affecting the contemporary classical music industry. But one stands out as the
most critical: the deep cuts in public schools' music education programs.
And the most silly. We had this debate a few weeks ago already; first, the
"contemporary classical music industry" by which I assume we mean "today's" and
not "modern music", is not in "dire straits." It has grown hugely over the past
few decades and is discovering that it cannot sustain its current level of
activity everywhere that it decided to plant itself. That's not "dire
straights", it bad management, bad marketing, and stupid decision making, and
the result is a lot of unhappy people looking for someone else to blame for
their own mistakes, talking to journalists looking for a story.
Is classical music in the schools a good thing as part of general program of
education about our shared cultural heritage? Of course it is. Will it have any
positive commercial impact in terms of creating new audiences for concerts and
recordings? Not at all. Witness the people in this very group who will praise
their encounters with classical music in the schools to the skies, but who would
pawn their own mother's jewelry before paying full price for a CD.
Leaving aside
the issue of the impact of mere "exposure" and the amount necessary to create an
"audience," the purpose of such education is not to create consumers. It's to
impart knowledge.
Can you understand how, for some people, when they receive knowledge,
they occasionally take an interest in the knowledge given them and
then pursue the subject further on their own, which often requires
buying things?
There is a world of difference between teaching classical music in the schools,
an endeavor that belongs to the world of education, and creating a new
generation of classical music consumers, the exclusive realm of the
ENTERTAINMENT industry. Classical music vies for the consumer's entertainment
dollar alongside all other forms of cheap entertainment (classical CDs are, on
average, even cheaper than pop CDs, and a good seat at Carnegie Hall still costs
less than a Broadway show), and teaching a child to regurgitate required
information for a grade will not create either music lovers or music consumers.
That can only come from one place: the home.
This absolute statement [creating music lovers or consumers can only
come from the home] requires but a single counter-example to be proven
false, and here it comes: I had a grade-school teacher named Mr. Leo
Hamilton who played the Ansermet recording of Glazunov's Seasons in
class every Friday afternoon. Forcing me to listen over and over to
the same work (which, say what you will about it, I still love),
taught me to listen with an attention to detail that was unknown to
me. Without that, I doubt I would ever have developed an interest in
music. It certainly would not have come from my home. Though my much
older brother studied the piano briefly in college, neither of my
parents had any particular interest in music. For the past 12 years
or so, I've bought on average one CD per day, many of them at full
price, not to mention hundreds of books about music, sheet music and a
few quite pricey instruments. Many thanks, Mr. Ham, wherever you are!
John
Ian Pace
2003-08-31 16:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by clamnebula
---Original Message---
Entertainment - Reuters
Bringing Classical Music Into Classrooms
1 hour, 49 minutes ago By Steve Smith
NEW YORK (Billboard) - Many explanations have been offered for the dire straits
affecting the contemporary classical music industry. But one stands out as the
most critical: the deep cuts in public schools' music education programs.
And the most silly. We had this debate a few weeks ago already; first, the
"contemporary classical music industry" by which I assume we mean "today's" and
not "modern music", is not in "dire straits." It has grown hugely over the past
few decades and is discovering that it cannot sustain its current level of
activity everywhere that it decided to plant itself. That's not "dire
straights", it bad management, bad marketing, and stupid decision making, and
the result is a lot of unhappy people looking for someone else to blame for
their own mistakes, talking to journalists looking for a story.
Is classical music in the schools a good thing as part of general program of
education about our shared cultural heritage? Of course it is. Will it have any
positive commercial impact in terms of creating new audiences for concerts and
recordings? Not at all. Witness the people in this very group who will praise
their encounters with classical music in the schools to the skies, but who would
pawn their own mother's jewelry before paying full price for a CD. Leaving aside
the issue of the impact of mere "exposure" and the amount necessary to create an
"audience," the purpose of such education is not to create consumers. It's to
impart knowledge.
There is a world of difference between teaching classical music in the schools,
an endeavor that belongs to the world of education, and creating a new
generation of classical music consumers, the exclusive realm of the
ENTERTAINMENT industry. Classical music vies for the consumer's entertainment
dollar alongside all other forms of cheap entertainment (classical CDs are, on
average, even cheaper than pop CDs, and a good seat at Carnegie Hall still costs
less than a Broadway show), and teaching a child to regurgitate required
information for a grade will not create either music lovers or music consumers.
That can only come from one place: the home.
And I say this having donated several thousand CDs to my old high school library
so that it should have a decent music collection. Why? For the PLEASURE of the
students and faculty, not because I thought for a minute that this gift would
stand a chance of making a significant number of money-spending converts to the
"cause."
David Hurwitz
All so very very true. The state of classical music is not at all
synonymous with the commercial state of the industry. Three Tenors
CDs, heavily marketed and promoted, might sell to a degree that is
unprecedented, just as some Hollywood blockbuster will surely do
better at the box office than a low-budget film by an Iranian
director. Do either of these things imply that appreciation of music
or film are heightened?

Culture and the culture industry are absolutely non-identical - it is
a sad legacy of the Thatcher/Reagan years, in which value was made
identical with marketplace exchange-value, that such a distinction is
dissolved in the minds of many. In both Britain and the United
States, we lack much of a notion of culture other than as a middle- or
highbrow extension of the entertainment industry. The contemporary
products reflect this - empty compositions, prettified and elegant
surfaces lacking any sort of deeper emotional or intellectual content
(true of most of the British mainstream); in literature, up-market
potboilers, trendy tales of street life in this or that community,
souped-up Reader's Digest schlock, dreary tales of middle-class angst,
historical sagas which jettison any of the more complex perspectives
provided by historiography in favour of the attitude of the curator,
all dignified by a certain bellelettristic style of writing, forever
marketed with flashy covers and blurb to tell us why the writer is the
next hot property. There is a place for all such stuff, of course,
but let's not pretend this is all culture can be.

(Hmmmm - a bit of a rant is a great hangover cure, it seems!) :)

Ian
totototo+ (Rodger Whitlock)
2003-09-01 00:03:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Pace
Culture and the culture industry are absolutely non-identical - it is
a sad legacy of the Thatcher/Reagan years, in which value was made
identical with marketplace exchange-value, that such a distinction is
dissolved in the minds of many.
This can be expressed more succinctly by the tag line "There are
other measures of value than the almighty dollar. Not all
valuable things have prices."
--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Brendan R. Wehrung
2003-09-01 04:05:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by totototo+ (Rodger Whitlock)
Post by Ian Pace
Culture and the culture industry are absolutely non-identical - it is
a sad legacy of the Thatcher/Reagan years, in which value was made
identical with marketplace exchange-value, that such a distinction is
dissolved in the minds of many.
This can be expressed more succinctly by the tag line "There are
other measures of value than the almighty dollar. Not all
valuable things have prices."
--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
The Canadian $ isn't so almighty these days, though.

Brendan
--
Lecter
2003-08-31 17:30:09 UTC
Permalink
I teach high school English and play classical music for my students on a
regular basis. I rather enjoy watching their expressions as I play a bit of
Penderecki's "Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima" as an intro to Kafka's
"The Metamorphosis"!! We also listen to some John Dowland lute pieces as we
study Shakespeare. As soon as I am brave enough, I'll bring my guitar to
class and play some pieces for them! (Maybe a Rameau transcription while
studying "Cyrano de Bergerac.")

I'm lucky that my school district (Davis, CA) provides a rich cultural
experience for the students and rarely, if ever, cuts back on the arts even
during the most dire periods of funding cuts.

John
Raymond Hall
2003-09-01 00:35:39 UTC
Permalink
"Alan Watkins" <***@aol.com> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...
| "Lecter" <***@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<Bgq4b.7869$***@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>...
| > I teach high school English and play classical music for my students on
a
| > regular basis. I rather enjoy watching their expressions as I play a bit
of
| > Penderecki's "Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima" as an intro to
Kafka's
| > "The Metamorphosis"!! We also listen to some John Dowland lute pieces as
we
| > study Shakespeare. As soon as I am brave enough, I'll bring my guitar to
| > class and play some pieces for them! (Maybe a Rameau transcription while
| > studying "Cyrano de Bergerac.")
| >
| > I'm lucky that my school district (Davis, CA) provides a rich cultural
| > experience for the students and rarely, if ever, cuts back on the arts
even
| > during the most dire periods of funding cuts.
| >
| > John
|
| As I have previously posted I think it is not only important that we
| take performing classical music into schools but almost incumbent upon
| professional musicians to do so, if they can.
|
| To take a symphony orchestra before children has been, for me, a very
| thrilling and rewarding experience.
|
| We have devised a rough formula for so doing. We start off with
| something like the William Tell Overture or Donna Diana by Reznicek
| (because both works help "show off" orchestral sections) and then
| there are several quieter pieces (possibly featuring wind/strings).
| These may be Czech pieces (like the Lovers by Suk) or something like
| the Barber: Adagio.
|
| In the first part of the afternoon there is no music: the children
| talk to the musicians and can, if they wish, try out the instruments
| for themselves (usually a popular moment) before we do a couple of
| "play out" pieces.
|
| One of the most popular play out pieces seems to be the Imperial March
| from Star Wars (as all children seem to know about Star Wars) which
| hopefully communicates this is music provided, basically, by symphonic
| musicians, not a rock group.
|
| Children and parents (depending upon the particular scheme) then
| subsequently get a free ticket (s) to a symphonic, opera, ballet
| performance.
|
| People may laugh at such a scheme but I do think it is at least worth
| attempting.

Not laughable at all, but some excellent attempts to set some seeds growing
in young brains. I see nothing wrong with playing the Star Wars Imperial
March, and worthy of being programmed at concerts, and besides, are we not
all kids when it comes to Star Wars?

Btw, I saw the first Lord of The Rings film (Fellowship of the Ring) the
other night on TV, and realised I was well behind the *real* scene, when in
the Supermarket the other day, I saw VHS copies of what I thought was the
Fellowship (at a very cheap price, approx. $12 US), only to be promptly, and
very excitedly told by an older Mum in the queue, that this was the (Two or
Twin Towers) follow up. Wow, did she look triumphant.

To cut a long story short, I did notice that for the Fellowship of the Ring,
a film I taped and thoroughly enjoyed, that the music composer was Howard
Shore, and part of the fascination for me was the music. Shore must be one
of the premier film composers around at this moment. Other films he composed
for include The Fly, Mrs Doubtfire, Seven, Silence of the Lambs, amongst
others. And in the Gramophone Film Music Good Guide, he has the honour of
immediately preceding Shostakovich.

The importance of kids being able to participate with musicians who play
music such as Star Wars stuff, cannot be overestimated imo.

Regards,

# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)

Ray, Taree, NSW
Daniel Kolle
2003-09-01 00:57:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raymond Hall
Not laughable at all, but some excellent attempts to set some seeds growing
in young brains. I see nothing wrong with playing the Star Wars Imperial
March, and worthy of being programmed at concerts, and besides, are we not
all kids when it comes to Star Wars?
Got me started.

--
-Kolle; 15 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, and Gustav Mahler are my Gods.
Madly Insane EAC Scientist.
Peter T. Daniels
2003-09-01 13:09:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Kolle
Post by Raymond Hall
Not laughable at all, but some excellent attempts to set some seeds growing
in young brains. I see nothing wrong with playing the Star Wars Imperial
March, and worthy of being programmed at concerts, and besides, are we not
all kids when it comes to Star Wars?
Got me started.
But in the olden days, it was *2001*, which used real music, not John
Williams imitation music. (I'm waiting for *Return of the King* so I can
go to a LoTR marathon, so I haven't heard the score. I've no doubt it's
better than *Star Wars*.)
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Alan Watkins
2003-09-01 20:19:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But in the olden days, it was *2001*, which used real music, not John
Williams imitation music. (I'm waiting for *Return of the King* so I can
go to a LoTR marathon, so I haven't heard the score. I've no doubt it's
better than *Star Wars*.)
I think you are being a "bit" unkind to John Williams. You can play
Star Wars as a stand alone orchestral suite (I have done so many
times) and I don't think it is "out of place" in symphonic music.

And remember that 2001 didn't use ALL of the Richard Strauss
spectacular :):)

Stokowski said, defending Fantasia, that the combination of picture
and music was the most powerful force and I think I agree with that.
There are even today rather a lot of (probably old) people who cannot
divorce Dance of the Hours from the bizarre dancing of Hippopotamus
and Alligators (or Crocodiles).

When I took my own (now grown up) daughter to see Fantasia, the sight
of the dinosaurs trudging along to the music of Rite of Spring made
her cry. She is now, from time to time, playing the work
professionally but she's stopped the crying (too busy counting) but
still cannot lose that image!

I think film-music or music-film is a very, very potent combination.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Peter T. Daniels
2003-09-01 21:21:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Watkins
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But in the olden days, it was *2001*, which used real music, not John
Williams imitation music. (I'm waiting for *Return of the King* so I can
go to a LoTR marathon, so I haven't heard the score. I've no doubt it's
better than *Star Wars*.)
I think you are being a "bit" unkind to John Williams. You can play
Star Wars as a stand alone orchestral suite (I have done so many
times) and I don't think it is "out of place" in symphonic music.
Sure. I liked the *Star Wars* music. I even bought the album. But then I
saw *Raiders of the Lost Ark*, and *Superman*, and and *ET*, and
*Jurassic Park*, and various sequels and such, and kept hearing the same
music over and over and over and over and over and over ... Mr. Williams
has written three movie scores (that I know of): *Jaws*, *Schindler's
List*, and the other one.
Post by Alan Watkins
And remember that 2001 didn't use ALL of the Richard Strauss
spectacular :):)
And it used all of "Blue Danube," and a piece by Khatchaturian, and
several pieces by Ligeti, and wasn't there more too?
Post by Alan Watkins
Stokowski said, defending Fantasia, that the combination of picture
and music was the most powerful force and I think I agree with that.
There are even today rather a lot of (probably old) people who cannot
divorce Dance of the Hours from the bizarre dancing of Hippopotamus
and Alligators (or Crocodiles).
And there's very little opportunity to hear it anywhere else: *La
Gioconda* isn't exactly a cornerstone of the repertoire (and when Lyric
did it once, it was clear why: not only do you need *six* of the
greatest singers in the world, what they're given to do really isn't
worth their time.
Post by Alan Watkins
When I took my own (now grown up) daughter to see Fantasia, the sight
of the dinosaurs trudging along to the music of Rite of Spring made
her cry. She is now, from time to time, playing the work
professionally but she's stopped the crying (too busy counting) but
still cannot lose that image!
And how much resemblance is there between the movie version and the real
thing?
Post by Alan Watkins
I think film-music or music-film is a very, very potent combination.
But film music divorced from the images it was written to enhance is
usually pretty vapid.

(Channel 13 had a mini-Leslie Howard festival Sat/early Sunday, and I've
now watched the first half hour of *Intermezzo* (Introducing Ingrid
Bergman!), and I don't think you'd want to hear the key violin piece too
often outside the film ... BTW is that Isaac Stern? There wasn't a
violinist credit in the opening credits, and WNET tends not to show
closing credits, so I might not find out.)
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Dr.Matt
2003-09-02 02:36:51 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Alan Watkins
And remember that 2001 didn't use ALL of the Richard Strauss
spectacular :):)
And it used all of "Blue Danube," and a piece by Khatchaturian, and
several pieces by Ligeti, and wasn't there more too?
The Khatchaturian was from his ballet Gayane (that doesn't look right, but
it's approximate) used at the beginning of the Jupiter mission part of the
film (with Lockwood jogging his way around the carousel), Ligeti's Lux
Aeterna was used for the moonbus sequence; the Dies Irae from his Requiem
was used for the various monolith sequences; the orchestral work Adventures
was used for Bowman trip through the 'star gate'.
I think that's all.
Adventures is a chamber piece I think--I believe the stargate is Atmospheres,
though it's been a while since I saw the movie.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Jerry Kohl
2003-09-02 05:17:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr.Matt
...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Alan Watkins
And remember that 2001 didn't use ALL of the Richard Strauss
spectacular :):)
And it used all of "Blue Danube," and a piece by Khatchaturian, and
several pieces by Ligeti, and wasn't there more too?
The Khatchaturian was from his ballet Gayane (that doesn't look right, but
it's approximate) used at the beginning of the Jupiter mission part of the
film (with Lockwood jogging his way around the carousel), Ligeti's Lux
Aeterna was used for the moonbus sequence; the Dies Irae from his Requiem
was used for the various monolith sequences; the orchestral work Adventures
was used for Bowman trip through the 'star gate'.
I think that's all.
Adventures is a chamber piece I think--I believe the stargate is Atmospheres,
though it's been a while since I saw the movie.
Aventures (French title, not English, let's clear that up for a start) is indeed
the music used for the stargate sequence. It is a piece for vocalists, which
could I suppose be regarded as chamber music. Atmosphères is used earlier in the
film, I've forgotten exactly where.

--
Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
John Briggs
2003-09-01 23:36:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Watkins
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But in the olden days, it was *2001*, which used real music, not John
Williams imitation music. (I'm waiting for *Return of the King* so I can
go to a LoTR marathon, so I haven't heard the score. I've no doubt it's
better than *Star Wars*.)
I think you are being a "bit" unkind to John Williams. You can play
Star Wars as a stand alone orchestral suite (I have done so many
times) and I don't think it is "out of place" in symphonic music.
And remember that 2001 didn't use ALL of the Richard Strauss
spectacular :):)
I'm sure it's a slip of the keyboard, but don't you mean Johann
Strauss, Jr.? (Or, as Amazon puts it Johann II Strauss?)
Probably not, as I'm pretty sure that all of the "Blue Danube" was used.
"Also Sprach Zarathustra" on the other hand...
--
John Briggs
Dr.Matt
2003-09-02 01:34:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Watkins
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But in the olden days, it was *2001*, which used real music, not John
Williams imitation music. (I'm waiting for *Return of the King* so I can
go to a LoTR marathon, so I haven't heard the score. I've no doubt it's
better than *Star Wars*.)
I think you are being a "bit" unkind to John Williams. You can play
Star Wars as a stand alone orchestral suite (I have done so many
times) and I don't think it is "out of place" in symphonic music.
And remember that 2001 didn't use ALL of the Richard Strauss
spectacular :):)
I'm sure it's a slip of the keyboard, but don't you mean Johann
Strauss, Jr.? (Or, as Amazon puts it Johann II Strauss?)
Both, actually. A Johann Strauss Jr waltz for space-docking, and
the opening fanfar from Richard Strauss's Also Sprach Zarathustra
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Peter T. Daniels
2003-09-02 11:23:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Watkins
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But in the olden days, it was *2001*, which used real music, not John
Williams imitation music. (I'm waiting for *Return of the King* so I can
go to a LoTR marathon, so I haven't heard the score. I've no doubt it's
better than *Star Wars*.)
I think you are being a "bit" unkind to John Williams. You can play
Star Wars as a stand alone orchestral suite (I have done so many
times) and I don't think it is "out of place" in symphonic music.
And remember that 2001 didn't use ALL of the Richard Strauss
spectacular :):)
I'm sure it's a slip of the keyboard, but don't you mean Johann
Strauss, Jr.? (Or, as Amazon puts it Johann II Strauss?)
Like a Maccabee or a Ptolemy?? Did the Strausses practice papponymy?
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Mark Stenroos
2003-08-31 20:01:57 UTC
Permalink
David Hurwitz <***@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:

[snip]
Is classical music in the schools a good thing as part of general program of
education about our shared cultural heritage? Of course it is. Will it have any
positive commercial impact in terms of creating new audiences for concerts and
recordings? Not at all. Witness the people in this very group who will praise
their encounters with classical music in the schools to the skies, but who would
pawn their own mother's jewelry before paying full price for a CD. Leaving aside
the issue of the impact of mere "exposure" and the amount necessary to create an
"audience," the purpose of such education is not to create consumers. It's to
impart knowledge.
David Hurwitz>>
David makes a few good points. Let me add a few others as a father of
two, aged 6 & 10, who are currently enrolled in public school.

1. Yes, it is important for kids to have some type of music class in
school. Does that program need to concentrate on classical music to
teach the kids the basic language of music? No. They can learn all of
that singing Row, Row, Row Your Boat. The teacher simply needs to
explain it. I remember our high school music theory teacher who
explained what a musical sequence was using Michael Jackson singing
the Theme from Ben as an example of a piece built almost entirely on a
single musical sequence.

2. Young children love to sing. They are currently learning math and
their basic ABCs with the aid of music. Teachers already take
advantage of kids innate identification with music as a teaching tool.
Unfortunately, when it comes to music as a subject, many schools are
forced to make ridiculous compromises. For example: my kids' old
school in NJ featured only unison singing through at least grade 5.
Worse, the kids rarely sang with live instrumental accompaniment or a
capella. Rather, they sang along with a pre-recorded tape. If all the
kids stopped singing, the "music" continued anyway. Rhythms were slack
and intonation was catch-as-catch can. The music teacher often sat off
to the side running the tape player rather than conducting the kids.
Even when she got in front of them to lead them, their attention was
split between her and the tape. I spoke to her once about this. Her
explanation: she didn't like doing it, BUT the parents (read PTA,
teachers, etc) wanted to see RESULTS, and results meant dragging
little Johnny and Susie in front of the parents thrice a year for a
photo op. I swear, most parents seemed to get more excited when the
kids f*cked up because it was "cute" than they did over the "good"
part of the performance. And all this in a rather high-income area of
NJ.

3. Classical music in the home. My two kids are exposed (subjected
to?) classical music in the home on a daily basis. They like Mozart
(Eine kleine) and Beethoven. They think Bruckner is too loud. They
find Bach annoying. French music, they love - maybe because (huge
generalization here) it isn't as loud or aggressive as the German
stuff. They cover their ears when they hear opera. On the other hand,
both can do a pretty good impression of an opera singer voice (though
it smacks of Adam Sandler's Opera Man).

They like all of the usual drivel played at 4th of July concerts -
because there are always fireworks at the end (which never seem to
draw the "too loud" complaint that does Bruckner). My son likes John
Williams' movie scores - all because of the Star Wars phenom. Certain
cartoon series like The Smurfs use nothing but classical music as
their background. I will point out to them that they're actually
listening to Mahler (yes, Mahler's music is used in The Smurfs) and
that gives them a perspective - for a minute at best. One can make a
few connections, so I do.

I don't know if it's the job of the schools to obsessively teach kids
about classical music. I think they need to teach them about MUSIC,
period. After all, the kids don't learn math with the express purpose
of becoming accountants. They do, however, get exposed to great works
of literature through their English classes. I'd suggest that the same
relationship should and could exist in their music classes with
exposure to classical music.

In the meantime, my kids are being exposed to classical music in the
home in much the same way that I was. If they ask a question, I'm
there to answer. If they ask that I turn down the volume, I do that,
too.

While I know that our household is the exception to the rule in the
USA, I don't believe that I'm obsessing or being dogmatic in my
approach. At the end of the day, it's more of a matter of the kids
having SOME exposure as opposed to NO exposure to the classics. They
have plenty of time to form a real love for classical music in the
future. For now, it's best to present it as a slice of their daily
life, just like math, or English, or soccer practice, or video games,
or...
nightingale
2003-09-01 05:25:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Stenroos
Unfortunately, when it comes to music as a subject, many schools are
forced to make ridiculous compromises. For example: my kids' old
school in NJ featured only unison singing through at least grade 5.
Worse, the kids rarely sang with live instrumental accompaniment or a
capella. Rather, they sang along with a pre-recorded tape. If all the
kids stopped singing, the "music" continued anyway. Rhythms were slack
and intonation was catch-as-catch can. The music teacher often sat off
to the side running the tape player rather than conducting the kids.
Sounds almost as bad as the music "education" I was subjected to in
elementary school. For some years we did not have a music teacher - all
subjects except French were taught by our class teacher and I am sure
that the man we had for grade 4 was completely tone-deaf. There was a
school choir, which I joined, but it was pretty pathetic. The last year
I was there (grade 4 - I transfered to a better school in grade 5) they
started an orchestra, which I wanted to join, but the audition they set
was one that only kids who had music lessons outside of the school were
able to pass. They told me that I had no talent at all and should
forget about music, which for many years I believed :-(
Post by Mark Stenroos
photo op. I swear, most parents seemed to get more excited when the
kids f*cked up because it was "cute" than they did over the "good"
part of the performance. And all this in a rather high-income area of
NJ.
I've seen the same thing happen with church choirs - it didn't seem to
matter how bad the boys sang as long as they looked cute in their robes.
Post by Mark Stenroos
Certain
cartoon series like The Smurfs use nothing but classical music as
their background. I will point out to them that they're actually
listening to Mahler (yes, Mahler's music is used in The Smurfs) and
that gives them a perspective - for a minute at best. One can make a
few connections, so I do.
Reminds me of some of the cartoons I used to love - Bugs Bunny, Road
Runner & others had lots of great music. My favourite version of Wagner
is still the Bugs Bunny one :-)
Post by Mark Stenroos
I don't know if it's the job of the schools to obsessively teach kids
about classical music. I think they need to teach them about MUSIC,
Right!
Post by Mark Stenroos
period. After all, the kids don't learn math with the express purpose
of becoming accountants.
Not that math had much to do with accounting - I loved math, & somehow
got the silly idea that accounting would be OK, but it is so BORING!
Most of my classmates in the accounting courses were hopeless at math,
and they struggled to pass the QM & Finance courses that I found easy.

(Classes start next week - YEA!!! It will be a busy year working full
time & taking 2 university courses, but I'm so excited to finally be
starting to study music!!)
Post by Mark Stenroos
They do, however, get exposed to great works
of literature through their English classes. I'd suggest that the same
relationship should and could exist in their music classes with
exposure to classical music.
Also exposure to other areas of music & see relationships and differences.
Post by Mark Stenroos
In the meantime, my kids are being exposed to classical music in the
home in much the same way that I was. If they ask a question, I'm
there to answer. If they ask that I turn down the volume, I do that,
too.
I tried with my daughter, and when she was still skating she chose good
music for her programs, but some of the stuff she chooses to listen to
is pretty horrible.
Post by Mark Stenroos
While I know that our household is the exception to the rule in the
USA, I don't believe that I'm obsessing or being dogmatic in my
approach. At the end of the day, it's more of a matter of the kids
having SOME exposure as opposed to NO exposure to the classics. They
have plenty of time to form a real love for classical music in the
future. For now, it's best to present it as a slice of their daily
life, just like math, or English, or soccer practice, or video games,
or...
Well, maybe not the video games. Some of them have the most annoying
music & sound effects.
Peter T. Daniels
2003-09-01 13:13:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by nightingale
Reminds me of some of the cartoons I used to love - Bugs Bunny, Road
Runner & others had lots of great music. My favourite version of Wagner
is still the Bugs Bunny one :-)
Wait'll you discover Anna Russell!
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
nightingale
2003-09-01 16:23:32 UTC
Permalink
I've heard some of her stuff - pretty amazing. Have you ever heard Mary
Lou Fallis?
Nope!
I've heard her in concerts & on radio - if you can get CBC, she has a
short spot on Fridays called "diva's diary". I think she has CDs out as
well, but I have never looked for them. While she is amazingly funny,
she can sing serious stuff too - she has been in our church choir for a
while.
Russell's Ring is on the first of the (currently) three CDs of her
material. Tower keeps her both among the Vocalists and under Comedy.
I haven't heard her Ring - I'll have to check it out.
nightingale
2003-09-01 05:32:36 UTC
Permalink
Unfortunately we live in a society where it is far easier politically
to cut music programs than sports programs (and this has nothing to do
with Reagan/Thatcher, this is a value ordering that society has decided
upon, way before the Gipper). Never mind that it flies in the face of
logic, the fact that a student has a much more likely chance to make
money in music then making money as a professional athlete.
Even if they do not make money in music, music eduction has other benefits.

http://www.menc.org/publication/articles/academic/hawaii.htm
John F. Berky
2003-09-01 04:38:47 UTC
Permalink
Playing classical music to students may be nice, but the most important
thing to do is to get children to perform music - any music - and to get
involved in the aspect of artistic musical creation, not just appreciation.

Music study is known to to foster enhanced spacial reasoning, it gives
students an opportunity to work together as a team to create something
meaningful and it if admonistrators would sparpen their pencils they would
find that it can be cost effective.

There have been many cases where, due to budget cuts, music programs are the
first to go. So, they cut the music program and suddenly the loss of the
music teacher (who was handling 60-80 childrem during a class period) puts
these kids back in classrooms where it takes 2-3 teacher to retain the
proper class size of 30 students.

Someday, people will come to realize that the lack of music making in our
schools is one of the major causes for the problems we have in education.
So many people are put on this earth with aninherent skill in music. Our
schools basically tell these kids that their inherent skills are not wanted
or appreciated.

What a waste!
--
John F. Berky
Editor, Bruckner Symphony Discography
http://home.comcast.net/~jberky/BSVD.htm
Post by clamnebula
---Original Message---
Entertainment - Reuters
Bringing Classical Music Into Classrooms
1 hour, 49 minutes ago By Steve Smith
NEW YORK (Billboard) - Many explanations have been offered for the dire straits
affecting the contemporary classical music industry. But one stands out as the
most critical: the deep cuts in public schools' music education programs.
Without meaningful exposure to classical music, children can hardly be expected
to embrace such a serious, often demanding art. As a result, they may grow into
adults who feel no connection to the music -- and therefore have no compelling
reason to attend concerts or purchase recordings.
Rather than simply bemoaning the situation, several individuals and companies
have embarked on a campaign to win young hearts and minds on behalf of classical
music by offering educational tools for children of all ages and developmental
stages. Some have begun to direct their efforts toward empowering adult
listeners, as well.
read on here-
http://tinylink.com/?rb3h9rjs3y
Nicolai P. Zwar
2003-09-02 07:23:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by clamnebula
---Original Message---
Entertainment - Reuters
Bringing Classical Music Into Classrooms
1 hour, 49 minutes ago By Steve Smith
NEW YORK (Billboard) - Many explanations have been offered for the dire straits
affecting the contemporary classical music industry. But one stands out as the
most critical: the deep cuts in public schools' music education programs.
Without meaningful exposure to classical music, children can hardly be expected
to embrace such a serious, often demanding art. As a result, they may grow into
adults who feel no connection to the music -- and therefore have no compelling
reason to attend concerts or purchase recordings.
Rather than simply bemoaning the situation, several individuals and companies
have embarked on a campaign to win young hearts and minds on behalf of classical
music by offering educational tools for children of all ages and developmental
stages. Some have begun to direct their efforts toward empowering adult
listeners, as well.
read on here-
http://tinylink.com/?rb3h9rjs3y
Perhaps the best thing some teachers in certain areas could do nowadays
would be to wholeheartedly embrace even the most debased forms of modern
rock/pop music, to listen loudly in their cars to the most vile songs
imaginable (sometimes it helps to cry with the wolves, just do it
louder), and to condemn publicly all Back, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner,
Brahms, Boulez, Stockhausen as the most revolutionary counterculture
music with the power to attack and effect the existing status quo of
modern society.
--
Nicolai Zwar
http://www.nicolaizwar.com
(we're late, we know, and we're still closed)
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...